car elevators

[Larry Gant]

Instead of a incline to raise tram cars up a cliff I am thinking of a elevator to save space and raise one tram car at a time. My question: have elevators been used by mining companies to get up and down high cliffs? If so, would the structure be open air or closed in to protect the mechanism from the winter weather?

[Steve Holland]

Larry,

Elevators, wagon hoists or whatever were used in mining and quarrying. Don't forget the mining engineers would have been looking for the most cost effective way of moving the product for processing.
There were all sorts of inclines and wagon lifts in the Welsh slate quarries, mostly open in the surface workings with a few enclosed lifts between the working levels.
This shows the restored Vivian incline being demonstrated at Dinorwic Quarry, Llanberis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naGrum5Qsnc. There were some carrier type inclines that were much steeper than this, being almost vertical up the rock face.
De Winton made water balanced wagon hoists for use in the quarries. The weight of the empty wagon plus a tank full of water on its carrier going down the shaft was used to pull the full wagon plus the empty water tank on its carrier up the shaft. There is a photo of a De Winton head frame here http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f19/100950d1393625370-water-balance-elevator-1974-100.jpg, and a better view here http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/40564/images/PENRHYN+SLATE+QUARRY/?show=all (at the top of the list).
All of the winding drums were enclosed in some sort of building, mainly to keep the weather out of the bearings and brakes - the operators were usually not so lucky, being outside and perched on a hillside in a howling gale with sideways rain is not much fun. Going across the Cob at Porthmadog in those sort of conditions is bad enough and that is at sea level.

[Larry Gant]

If I'm understanding this correctly I would be following mining practices if I build my car lift up the face of a cliff. A bridge from the top of the lift over to solid ground would be needed since most cliffs are not absolutely vertical, at least not here in the Black Hills. Thank you for your valuable information.

I have many years of model railroad experience including "N", "HO" "On30" and G scale garden railways. I think I'm ready to jump into Gn15 with both feet and build a fairly large layout. My space is 16" deep by 15' along one wall by 16" deep by 9' along another wall. Also room for a peninsula 3' x 5' over my model building desk. This will be a large project and should take me to the end of my productive years on this old earth.

[Nevadablue]

Larry, What you describe is essentially a shaft mine with no 'shaft'. Ore cars were of course commonly raised with an 'elevator'. Depending on the size of the mine and the size of the cars, the same device, called a cage, would lift both men and machines.

[Larry Gant]

Would such a cage also be used to raise and lower the complete battery powered mine locos? Or would the batteries be removed to lighten the load?
Also, I'm hoping to suggest a mountain lodge (not actually modeled) that would use my tramway to bring in guests and supplies. Would these guests ride in the small passenger cars as they are being raised or lowered or would that be unsafe? I realize my premise for this layout is a bit unusual but, hey boys and girls, it's my little world and this should be fun to build. Isn't that what this hobby is all about, fun, etc!

[Nevadablue]

I like your ideas!

The normal mine hoist and cage installation is sized to raise and lower pretty much anything used underground. That would/should include battery locos if used and ore cars full of ore, supplies, and men. The cage that I have here was designed for loaded cars and men, with roof sections that opened up to allow long materials like timbers and drill steel to be loaded in the car. It is a small cage.
The cage we had at the first mine I worked at was large. Not huge, but large. I think the shaft was 21 feet in diameter and the cage fit front to back across the shaft. We could raise and lower any of our tracked equipment on the rails in the cage. Men rode the same cage there also. The large roof opened to allow things longer than the 18 feet or so on the floor of the cage to be moved. I remember lowering a 14G Cat grader hanging from the hoist mounted in the top of the cage. That was fun...
Anyway, yes, I think you could use your 'elevator' as you describe. Safety is relative... what era are you modeling? Many things considered safe in 1930 would be prohibited now due to lawyers... You know...
Make some sketches. I'm interested in seeing more of this.

[Larry Gant]

Ken,

I have a brother in Vegas and another one living over the hump in Pahrump. I live in the foot hills near Rapid City, SD.

My fractured layout scenario goes something like this: A very rare mineral called Appetite was found by native Americans in a remote stream bed at a high elevation in the Black hills of South Dakota/Wyoming. This was long before any white men invaded the Black Hills. The natives used the colored stones to make ceremonial "jewelry".

During the Black Hills gold rush of 18-- a prospector named Yrral Gantz surmised that these multi-colored translucent stones could have great value. So he filed a mining claim on the natives secret source of the stones. (nice guy) After exhaustive experimentation Yrral discovered that melting the stones then adding salt yielded a amazing compound. The vapors from his compound caused people to stop procrastinating. Yrral's Get-er-done compound, as he began calling his invention, seemed to have some commercial value. Consequently, Yrral sent a sample of his compound to a large pharmaceutical company back East. They liked what they saw so entered into a contract with Yrral to supply a refined concentrate of his compound.

Yrral's first mine was a horizontal drift at the bottom of a high cliff. After his motley crew broke into a large cavern and found nothing of commercial value, the mine and cave sat abandoned in the wilderness. Turning his sites to a promising location high atop the cliff, Yrral eventually found the actual source of the colored stones. A second mining claim was filed and a shaft type mine was started as soon as equipment could be hoisted up the high cliff face. A 15" gauge tramway was eventually built by Yarrl's grandson back in the 20s along with a vertical car lift to overcome that high cliff.

Fast forward to 1959. Yrral's great grandson, Kevin, now runs the company and has built a mountain resort above the "Cave of the Seven Giants" so named by Kevin. The resort offers a very private, relaxing vacation setting and also runs tours through the cave. Mine #2 is still producing respectable amounts of Appetite and Kevin is shipping the concentrate out on Yrral's grandson's 15" tramway. Also, resort patrons and supplies come in on the little tramway as well. LIFE IS GOOD!

[Nevadablue]

Great story! Can't wait to see some of the layout develop.

I am 'almost' a geologist. I spent my summer field camp in Spearfish, in 1969. I got married and didn't finish my degree and went to work at a lead mine in Missouri. You live in one of my favorite places on this earth. I almost bought a motel in Spearfish many years later but couldn't make the money in and money out even come close. sigh...

So, let's see the layout!

[KEG]

Maybe the site of that famous Polish salt mine brings some inspiration: http://www.wieliczka-saltmine.com/

Just finished a book about silver and gold mining around Leadville around the last quarter
of the 19th Century. Huge fortunes were won and lost in those times.

1959 they probably built atomic shelters into the old mines. Today they make fortunes by selling marihuana legally in the Colorado coffee shops and at the souvenir boothes of these mining towns.

So I am looking forward to see more of the Gn15 adventures in the Rocky Mountains or Black Hills.


Have Fun

Juergen

[Larry Gant]

Not much to show so far. Table work is mostly finished, being made of extruded foam insulation board and a bit of 1x3 to support the peninsula over my modeling desk. The backdrop is in place and primed but still needing sky blue and a few clouds etc.

One larger battery type loco is finished with a second almost done. Sixteen 4 wheel tram cars are finished with 5 more in the works. I'll try to figure out how to post photos to this site so you can see what I am talking about.

Not mentioned yet, I do have space under the layout to model a cut-away view of the cave and the underground workings of the upper shaft mine. Of course I am going to need a second car lift cage thing inside the mine. The car lift cages will have to be my next project, all else will depend on them actually working... smoothly.

I toured the surface workings of the now defunct Homestake gold mine about 45 years ago. The hoisting machinery was immense, as was the building housing the thing. All this still in existence and in use by scientists looking for "dark matter" deep underground. Being far to large to actually model in 1:24th scale, I'll have to figure out a way to suggest its existence while still having the car lift thing working.

Don't know if I'll have time to finish all my plans as I am 75 years old. I am in reasonably good health with the space, desire and experience to pull this off... I HOPE.

[Nevadablue]

Larry, keep at it. Like Yogi Barra said, "it ain't over till it's over".

I've been down a bit over 4000 feet in the Homestake, on a tour when I was in field camp. I have a very good friend who worked there for years. He gave me first hand info on the air powered Porter locomotives. Maybe you could use that info or if you want to know about other equipment I can ask him.

FUN is all that matters really. Nearly anything you can imagine has been at least tried in this old world. Every time I think I've invented something, I find evidence of it already existing...

Oh, please post photos. Every phase of the layout is interesting and may help another modeler get over the hump of solving a problem.

I was finally convinced to move my photos to Flickr, and I must say I'm impressed so far. Very easy to use and free.

[Larry Gant]

Ken,

Building a air motor is on my very long list of things I would like to make. Two small air motors and one very long one are on display up in Lead, SD.
Also, a diesel or gas loco, I can't tell just by looking at it, sits on display near the old open pit part of the Homestake. All 4 locos are 18" gauge.
There is a mining museum in Lead with many other examples of equipment used in the mines.

I'll check out Flicker for my photos.

[Larry Gant]

Just a test to see if my photo came through. One of my modified Bachmann tipper cars. (img)http://my.gn15.info/dsc00155.jpg(img)

[Larry Gant]

I'll try again... (img)http://my.gn15.info/dsc00155.jpg(/img)

[Larry Gant]

One more time...

[Bob Roegge]

I like the modification to the Bachmann cars. They look more substantial. Good show.

I made several ore cars from cardstock for my High Trestle Creek layouts. Simple and cheap but not to well detailed.

[Larry Gant]

Bob,

Your card stock cars look great to me. I like the hefty, rusty look and rivet detail What did you use for the rivet heads? I need to get more weathering and rust on my cars. Give me time, I'll get the hang of this Gn15 scale.

Larry

[Larry Gant]

A few pictures of what I have done so far...

[Thorness]

Great stuff!

That looks like a BIG space you have for Gn15.

Cheers

[Bob Roegge]

The rivets are drops of Elmers glue (PVA). Sometimes I apply with a toothpick but for consistency I use a fine hypodermic needle and syringe. I cut the needle off flush with a dremel cutting tool to eliminate the taper. I added a little fine sand to paint to make a rough texture.

Bob

[Nevadablue]

Wow, the layout looks great Larry. What era are you modeling in?

Thanks for the input Bob, I'm learning this all still myself.

[Larry Gant]

I am blessed with a "train room" 13'x15', heated and air conditioned. Aprox. half of the space contains my HO scale urban layout. The other half houses my Gn15 project.

Growing up during the 50s has left a permanent imprint on me so that's the era I am modeling.

The two closeup pics were taken on the HO layout. The pic with the yard stick is where my car lift will be built with a rise of 24". The pic showing the peninsula over my modeling desk will be the mine site.

The battery loco is a modified "HERB DEEKS" product. The coal car, tank car and flat car are all from "HERB DEEKS". The tipper cars are modified Bachmann On30 cars. The backdrop is hard board (Masonite).

[Larry Gant]

Bob,

I'm back, my internet server has been down for a bit.
I would like to try building with card stock as you and others have done. What type of card stock are you using? It looks very thin and ridged. What type of glue works best on card stock?

I've been busy building up blocks of foam around the hoist area to get a idea of the size and shape of the cliff. I will post pics when a little farther along.

Larry

[Steve Holland]

Larry,
I had a bit more of a search for some of the more extreme Dinorwic Quarry inclines and found this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/penmorfas/albums/72157622205038624/page2
Part way down the page is Ponc Wyllt incline. Its a lot steeper than the restored Vivian incline, but the wagons still rode on transporters. Just have to hope that the guys putting the wagons on at the top were careful!

[Bob Roegge]

Don't laugh to hard but most of my card stock building is done with cereal boxes and tablet backs. Elmers glue works very good although I use thin CA often as it sets instantly. I also often will apply thin CA as on the outer surface to seal the card stock. The card stock becomes as rigid and sturdy as plastic once coated with thin CA. I usually will prime card stock models with flat black spray paint to seal the card stock. I use cheap Krylon or Rustoleum spray cans.

Bob