Canute (Was New Pizza pending - all dieselwaters' fault!)

For discussion of the issues faced when building a model or layout - how to replicate wood, what glues to use, exactly how much weathering can a Gnat take, a good source of detailing accessories - you get the picture, I'm sure.

Moderator: GnATTERbox Moderators

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Canute (Was New Pizza pending - all dieselwaters' fault!)

Postby John New » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:01 pm

At the Severn Valley Railway today (Kidderminster) and found the station shop had some really cheap plastic battery powered trains to go round in a circle on sale. Crude but for about the price of a beer (£2.75) I got one as might be able to hack it to something.

This page on a wholesaler's website is the right range but the one I got from SVR has a different colour scheme and the loco a slightly different body shell shape.


Probably not the same as dieselwaters source range but his idea does translate over to this one, and even if I fail I will get more than my money's worth out of trying.

Not run it yet, got back too late tonight, but gauge looks to be 12mm.
Last edited by John New on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
dieselwater
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Interests: Model railways, painting, guitar

Postby dieselwater » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:56 am

It's always my fault :roll: :lol:

Looks like you should have something up and running with the set you've got. It's just a case of making a framework to slot over the motor unit. These days I turn the unit on and then slot the body over the top. It can be hard to turn the motor one once the body is in place. This also gives you more options in terms of critter design 8) I also make my bodies interchangable- more critters for less motor units.

For the track work, I spray with a rust like colour and use groundwork materials to disguise.

Have fun :D 8) ... it's always my fault.... :lol:
Little old lines to somewhere.

David.

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:20 pm

Back from second railway trip of weekend (Fareham Mod Ex and Eastleigh Lakeside diesel day) so have got new toy up and running this evening, as is. Surprisingly it does work!

Initial observations -

1) Contents = Circle of track approx 4 1/2" radius (9" dia across the inside rails) plus crude tank loco, coal/water tender and US style caboose.

2) Did it run straight out of the box? Loco, yes once single AA battery in. However had to dismantle one of the trucks and trim some flash off the coupling. An inexperienced person would probably have broken the part forcing it instead.

3) Runs quite quick but does stay on the track.

4) Agree with dieselwater the on/off switch is very awkward to use.

5) Battery gets very hot (current draw?) is it a fire hazard in prolonged use? Is this why covering notes say don't use rechargeables in it?

First impressions, overall fun buy for converting to something. Even running now in cheapo little toy mode, watching it running round is soothing. However too flimsy and fliddly for use by the child market it is presumably aimed at so may be not good for bringing kids into the hobby

I think it is going to be a very creative week for me turning it into something life like!!
Image
Last edited by John New on Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:34 pm

I had thought of using these cheap train sets as a basis but I would want to buy spare motor units as I suspect they won't last very long especially if the motor is getting hot.Speed is also an issue for small trains. I have bought some Tomy road vehicles for a slot directed road /factory project. The rail version is very similar to that used by Dieselwater I think.
I have also used many cheap powered toy units for larger scale/gauge garden trains, and when I find something suitable I try to get spare units, just in case.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:11 pm

Good comment Simon. However as the thing only costs the price of a pint of beer my aim is more getting some enjoyment out of making something quick and dirty than considering long term running. It also means when I see some more I will buy some spares.

Anyone out there know why the battery is getting hot, is it normal? I am not very knowledgeable about electrics/physics but get the general idea that heat occurs when drawn demand exceeds easy ability of the circuit to pass it and is a result of resistance. I can also never remember with 100% certainty which of the three components, resistance (ohms?), flow (volts?) and pressure (amps?) is which.

So for whatever reason is the overheat here in the battery because the motor is trying to pull off more than a single battery can comfortably supply?
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
More_Cats_Than_Sense
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:10 am
Location: Suffolk, UK
Interests: Railways, Cats, Computers, Beer

Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:08 pm

The heat within the battery is generated by the current being drawn from it interacting with the internal resistance of the battery. It's the "I squared, R" rule, basically the value of current being drawn is squared and multiplied by the resistance of the battery, so the higher the current the much worse it gets.
It sounds like the current draw from the battery is well towards the high side of the battery design spec.
Barry Weston

If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer.

The only thing that keeps me sane, is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes....

Never knowingly sensible!

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:35 pm

Thanks Barry for that reply and glad to know I was in the right area as to cause.

Track and wheels are plastic so no options for an alternative power to motor via that source. However a minimum gauge three-phase outline overhead electric could be on the cards for this. Alternatively a sort of version of that side power "sparky" system that was on here a few months back with the power wires on the inside (so not so noticeable it is two contact wires not one.) and then use a controller for power source.

Edit - Found the You tube video and the covering thread here on Gnatterbox.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
More_Cats_Than_Sense
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:10 am
Location: Suffolk, UK
Interests: Railways, Cats, Computers, Beer

Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:47 pm

I'm guessing that the battery is of the "AA" type, would it be possible to fit a "C" or a "D" type cell if you can disguise it as part of the superstructure? The larger cells will have a lower internal resistance, as well as a higher capacity.
Barry Weston



If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer.



The only thing that keeps me sane, is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes....



Never knowingly sensible!

User avatar
jacko
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:30 pm
Location: ipswich suffolk
Interests: model railways ng

Postby jacko » Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:54 pm

could a C / D type bigger battery be on a wagon permintly behind loco
dressed as a oil tank :wink:
jacko

User avatar
Oztrainz
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:47 am
Location: Unanderra NSW Australia
Interests: narrow gauge railways & modelling same

Postby Oztrainz » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:00 pm

Hi John,
An off the wall idea - Use the tender or van vehicle and convert it to a high side van to hide 2 by C or D cells - wire the batteries in parallel and jumper them to the loco unit. Put your on/off switch on this vehicle so that it is easy to get at (behind a sliding door?). It should run forever with higher capacity batteries and reduced current draw across each battery :wink:
John Garaty
Murphy was an optimist

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:00 pm

Yes it is an AA as designed. I will have a look at the alternative battery shapes you have variously suggested. Open mind on loco body shape and what the two trucks can be modified into so happy to design round any suitable battery.

There is one slight snag with one (perhaps both) of the the two trucks. Nothing insurmountable but when I dismantled the tender to fix the coupling problem i found that the small self tap screw that holds the chassis bits to the top fits into a column of descending plastic (stalactite); therefore any body top design modification has to incorporate either a bolt or self tap screw to hold the chassis together.

I had ideas of slider switches too, perhaps using the silencer/muffler if opting for a diesel or a clicking on/off switch using the safety valve if going for a kettle!
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
route29
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:49 am
Location: South Alabama, USA
Interests: model railroading, trains

Postby route29 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:54 am

That's basically the same set I used to build my Life's a Beach Railroad except that mine didn't have a tender. I've built a couple of layouts using this set, but had not made any modifications other than repainting. I've considered doing one with a modified loco and maybe building some more cars. They're fun to build.

Life's a Beach video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNZoEZAN2Ik

Squarefoot Christmas video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyJ37l1VNLE
John

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:05 am

I would suggest mounting the larger battery in in loco, as this adds weight. Also use a double pole switch so you can reverse direction.
For wagons build bodies around ones already there, or remove as much as you can without upsetting the chassis construction.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

User avatar
AndyA
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:24 am
Location: Southampton, England
Interests: Railways, Folk music, food, travel
Andy died 14-Sep-2017 and will post no more. Travel well on your new guage.

Postby AndyA » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:26 am

I'm assuming (from the white 'valve gear') that the underlying chassis has the motor vertically 'behind' (if you assume that the cylinders are the front, with a worm driving a gear on the rear axle only and the AA cell in front? (hard to describe, but no access to photography stuff right now.

If so, I picked up a similar one in a market in Ankara, so I suspect mine as as grotty as they get. I have used it for quick-discharging the AA NiMHs that my wife's camera uses, with no ill-effects. I've just run an already-partially-discharged Duracell Ultra alkaline fully down (15mins) and it didn't get noticeably hot. Somewhere I have some really cheap ten-pack from the pound shop, so I'll try one of them. I seem to recall that hte battery that came with the set was as cheap as they get.

Sadly, the curved track from my set (which also included a left- and a right-hand point) has gone walkies, so I'll ned to look around for another set...

regards
Andy A
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind
gnine: less is the gnew more
GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:38 am

Good feedback chaps.

Glad to see the thing running John (route29) and had forgotten those Youtube clips. I particularly like the cowboy hoe down mini layout idea.

Thanks also Simon. Battery into the loco does make sense for the weight aspect. After the suggestions yesterday I was thinking about a vertical boiler lash-up. The pimple on the battery top fitting up the funnel and replacing the existing crude on-off switch with the lever of the reverser quadrant.

A friend of mine (Keith HUnt) has designed a range of 009 card kits as I have already mentioned in gnatterbox previously . Although only his WHR Russell 2-6-2T kit is commercially available I have a draft for his 4mm VB engine. May well try scaling it up.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
Steve Bennett
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 12:55 am
Location: Exeter, UK
Interests: railways?

Postby Steve Bennett » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:59 am

AndyA wrote:If so, I picked up a similar one in a market in Ankara, so I suspect mine as as grotty as they get. I have used it for quick-discharging the AA NiMHs that my wife's camera uses, with no ill-effects. I've just run an already-partially-discharged Duracell Ultra alkaline fully down (15mins) and it didn't get noticeably hot.


:lol: Thats what I use my set for, they are great for discharging batteries. Sometimes it is left running for several hours if I have a whole bunch to discharge, though I make sure it is in a different room than me :lol:
Have only ever run it on rechargeables and no problems, though I do seem to recall it got warm when I first got it (about 10 years ago).
Steve Bennett
Sidelines
http://www.pepper7.com

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:16 am

I'm assuming (from the white 'valve gear') that the underlying chassis has the motor vertically 'behind' (if you assume that the cylinders are the front, with a worm driving a gear on the rear axle only and the AA cell in front? (hard to describe, but no access to photography stuff right now.
Spot on Andy.

The hot battery issue is odd. Just given it a quick burst again this morning and it hasn't done it. A thought is perhaps there was something sticky in the mechanism that running has freed up.

I mentioned Russell in the last post. Had a 7mm drawing of it to hand, the wheels in the toy are smaller diameter but the wheelbase over the six coupled set is right to within a smidgeon.

Too many ideas for one toy, hope the SVR shop still has some left when I go up for November's SLS meeting.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:09 pm

Looking at the engine as is with the stickers off it resembles the 0-6-0 USA tanks as used in Southampton Docks I watched as a kid. 12mm in 1:24 scales out to 11.3" gauge.

Therefore the model is likley to be fettled up a bit and represent a freelance, 10 1/4 gauge USA Tank adaptation with the caboose used as a "sit astride" driving truck as per John's Life's a beach.

The tender, as supplied, is hopelessly undersized for any engine you could make out of the chassis given the fixed "in cab" lump of the vertical motor block. The tender will be put aside and used in another way later.

Having now decided the engine "to be" is of the miniature railway type, the pizza will be some form of miniature railway. Thoughts now turning to that setting and what I have in 1:24 already in hand.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
AndyA
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:24 am
Location: Southampton, England
Interests: Railways, Folk music, food, travel
Andy died 14-Sep-2017 and will post no more. Travel well on your new guage.

Postby AndyA » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:26 pm

12mm in 1:24 scales out to 11.3" gauge.


It also makes a reasonable 18"-ish, in close-enough for a pizza. You've sort of got me thinking. Unfortunately. :)

Gotta find that curved track.

But I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

regards
Andy A
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind

gnine: less is the gnew more

GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

User avatar
jacko
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:30 pm
Location: ipswich suffolk
Interests: model railways ng

Postby jacko » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:39 pm

as for the track as no voltage is required to run through it, why not build this out of wood, groves can be cut with a 2mm router 2mm deap as routers can cut circles :lol:
jacko

User avatar
AndyA
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:24 am
Location: Southampton, England
Interests: Railways, Folk music, food, travel
Andy died 14-Sep-2017 and will post no more. Travel well on your new guage.

Postby AndyA » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:35 am

jacko wrote:...groves can be cut with a 2mm router 2mm deap as routers can cut circles :lol:


I do possess a router. But those who have followed what I can manage with an ordinary craft-knife or hacksaw are probably already running for cover at the thought. :)

That said, if you are handy with his kind of stuff, the approach makes sense.

regards
Andy A
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind

gnine: less is the gnew more

GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:05 pm

Hardly any progress this week due to design constraints giving me a mental block.

Although the lump of 3/4" plywood I had ideas on using for the base was found lurking where expected it to be in my shed, now found it is not quite the right shape!

Also if sticking with my first idea of using the supplied body shell adapted into a miniature loco based on an ex Southampton Docks USA tank the scales to match the figures etc I have in stock would be 1:43/8, 1:32 or 1:24. BUT to make it look even vaguely convincing with a ride behind truck 1:12 would be better. As the ratio decreases the tighter and more ludicrous the track curvature becomes.

I will keep thinking on it.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:49 pm

Progress on the loco today although the plastic is very brittle and one part snapped where it shouldn't but I don't think irrevocably. Unlike David's (dieselwater) conversions this first one is staying as a steamer.
Image

I have gone for an open back cab with the backhead from an old Airfix L&Y Pug 0-4-0 glued to the motor housing. Windows on the cab side opened out. Used part of the now scrap plasticard removed from the cab back to put on a shovel plate to aid firing. Those few things in themselves make it a bit less toy like even without a re-paint.

General clean up of the moulding flash and opening out of the area around the cylinders. Also in connection with the cylinders used some spare sprue to make up two steam pipes from smokebox to cylinders. Finally on the loco cut the injector off an old scrap Aifix BR standard 2-6-0 and glued that under the cab on the opposite side to the on/off switch.

Tender - this is the bit that broke! Did some cutting, shaping and sticking on the tender front to make it a bit less box like. Totally freelance. In tweaking the chassis a bit to better fit the modified body it snapped.

Prospective driver- he will need some tweaking to bend his legs closer to 90 deg but the Italeri truck driver (1:24) is penciled in for this sitting on the tender on a cushion. Not sure where the fire irons will go when I make them, probably just resting on the tender top.

Layout setting - still TBC.

More to do before it hits the paint shop but a start.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

User avatar
dieselwater
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Interests: Model railways, painting, guitar

Postby dieselwater » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:44 am

It's coming together John 8) Modding existing fames and bodies etc cant be easy. The other way is to construct a fame to sit over the top of the chassis. Though I like the body as is :wink: You could make a steamer with skirts 8)
Little old lines to somewhere.

David.

User avatar
John New
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:29 pm
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK
Interests: railways large and small.
Contact:

Postby John New » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:20 am

What I like on the existing body shell is the riveted side tank detail and the smokebox rivets. Proportionally the rest of it is a dog! However for a £2.75 toy it ain't bad. I aim to see how this survives the month and if it is still running OK then when I go to SVR next month if the shop has some more I will buy a few more. I enjoy the planning for these projects as much as the doing and many more get planned than built! None of our local stores have them.

Thoughts on options for future conversions-

1) Remove most of the body except for the tanks, slice off the smokebox and raise it removing the overseas style moulding. Run back a parallel boiler, add a dome and cab and there is a Heywood style miniature.

2) As above but also remove the side tanks and run with the tender from the set and there is a River Irt style option available.

3) Rip off all the bodywork above the running plate and do a Secundus style steamer.

4+) A whole raft of industrial/miniature diesels as you do David.

What I like about these is that for the price of a pint of beer there is a challenge. If it goes t**s up at the end chucking it away and buying another one hasn't broken the bank. It brings affordability back to modeling and obviates the worry over how much what you are working with had cost to buy in the first place.

Edited - for spelling and sense.
John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!


Return to “Modelling Matters”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron