1:24 Scale 18" Bagnal

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1:24 Scale 18" Bagnal

Postby Roger » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:05 pm

http://s974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... comotives/
The above refers to a catalogue image of the 18" gauge Locomotives bagnal built for the Kimberly Diamod Mines. Below is a photo of Olive.
Image

I have started what i hope will be a live steam model of this locomotive in 1:24 scale the following pic shows the size of the chassis relative to other 1:24 scale models.
Image

The chassis has been built to scale dimensions but compromise has had to be made on cylinder design and valve layout in order to stand a chance of the model running! (I am working on these at the moment)

The following pics show the chassis detail. I am not a rivet counter so bolt and rivet detail is just to give an impression of the real loco and to enable assembly of component parts.

Image
Image
Image

Looking at these photos I will have to true up a number of the rivets as in real life the do not look as bad

I would like to know if there is a scale designation for true 1:24 on 18" gauge track. I have refered to it as Gn18 but have seen reference to Hn18 although the models have been 1:24 scale on 16.5 (00) track
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Postby trefor » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:24 pm

Wow :!:

I've seen photo's of this loco before and it looks a large loco for 18" gauge, I guess this is why you have chosen it.

How are you planning to fire it? Gas?

I think going to enjoy following this thread. :) :)
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Postby Trevor Coburn » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:17 pm

Looks splendid Roger. :D

As to Gn18, thats what I am designating my 18" gauge stuff (running on 18.2 /EM Gauge track)

...............Now I have drawings somewere for this beast......and it is (like the rest of my locos..........).an ex-pat Hmmmmmmmmmmm. :roll: Now just an excuse for the back-story...........
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Postby Trevor Coburn » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:17 pm

Looks splendid Roger. :D

As to Gn18, thats what I am designating my 18" gauge stuff (running on 18.2 /EM Gauge track)

...............Now I have drawings somewere for this beast......and it is (like the rest of my locos..........).an ex-pat Hmmmmmmmmmmm. :roll: Now just an excuse for the back-story...........
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Postby Adrian » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:33 pm

G'day Roger

Really like your new project......Sort of thing that I would love to do except I don't have the required skill set. :roll:
( I think that I might be able to assemble something that looks OK but I could never get it to run. Which makes me envious of those who can )

I would like to know if there is a scale designation for true 1:24 on 18" gauge track.

From reading various forums I have come to the conclusion that people tend to use their own designations for the lesser used scale/gauge combinations.....so just go ahead and invent your own :D
Personally I use 1/24 scale on 16.5mm track and call it Gn15...and 1/24 scale on 22mm track and I call that Gn24. But then its my layout so I can do what I want :!:


How are you planning to fire it?

Have you thought of taking a leaf out of Hornby's book and using electric firing ?. :?: You could use a DCC command station/booster which would give you about 8 amps for the heater AND the control signal as well :!:

Look forward to seeing your progress ( no matter what designation you select ) :!:
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1:24 scale Bagnal 18"

Postby Roger » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:37 pm

Many thanks for your response I think I will stick to Gn18 as its desigation. I intend to use gas to fire this locomotive, I have thought about electric heater elements when I was considering the smaller prototypes but had difficulty in tracking down a manufacturer. I wrote to a number of element producers quoting the Hornby example in the hopes that one of them may have produced it for Hornby or know of it and could make a recomendation, but no luck.

If someone has a bright idea on this please share.
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Re: 1:24 scale Bagnal 18"

Postby chris stockdale » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:48 pm

Roger wrote:
If someone has a bright idea on this please share.


Don't be shy, phone Hornby. After all, imitation is supposed to be the sincerest form of flattery.

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Postby steerngo » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:15 pm


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Postby Adrian » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:47 pm

G'day again Roger

Just an idea for the heating element.....try a short length of 240v fire element, the spring type. Cut a suitable length of the element ( probably about 5% of the total ) and mount it inside the boiler. Only one end would need to be insulated. It wouldn't need to be covered or enclosed, just so long as it didn't touch the inside of the boiler at any point, except at the grounded end of course.
It would require a bit of experimentation and an understanding of Ohm's law but I know it can be done.
In the 60's there was an article in Railway Modeller on an 'O' gauge loco that used just such a system. (Sorry.....no idea when).
Remember that at the voltages used here there should be no problems with electric shocks and as you should really be using distilled water ( for mechanical reasons ) there should be no problems with electicity leakage.

Hope that this helps.
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Bagnal Price Motion

Postby Roger » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:12 pm

Take your point Chris about contacting Hornby direct, but this model will be gas fired, Thanks for the Link Ken, I have seen these before they are of an oscillating cylinder design.

The Kimberley Class was a Bagnal - Price motion, I enclose a close up of this
Image.

My layout is a simplified version of this as depicted in my layout drawing below.
Image

The advantage of this design is the relatively simple adjustment that can be made to the valve settings. My valve ports are designed for a max 5mm travel.
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Postby michael » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:07 pm

Roger, I am really impressed! what a great project I will be continuing to follow your progress on this one.
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Postby grombert » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:11 pm

Now that's what I call modelling.
Have you thought of Roundhouse cylinders? In fact, I think PPS also do spare parts for steam. They also do gas tanks.
http://www.roundhouse-eng.com/
http://www.pps-steam-models.co.uk/
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Cylinder Assembly

Postby Roger » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:07 pm

I have finished my cylinder and piston assembly, I used an Accucraft casting and modified it accordingly.
Image
and have the valve assemblies to complete. These will also be based upon the Accuraft principle. Here,s some more pics showing the cylinder in relation to the chassis.ImageImage
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Clinder Assembly

Postby Roger » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:13 pm

Sorry for the poor quality of the photos, think the camera doesn't like the cold. Will try and do better next time.
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Postby rockershovel » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:46 am

I'd suggest that the sincerest form of flattery was making a cameo appearance on The Simpsons... or maybe the best-known and most easily recognisable, at any rate. That or being incorporated in a Bill Bailey stage set? There isn't any real current equivalent in appearing in one of Ernie's ''play what I wrote..''



As for the designation of gauge/scale relationships, to be honest I think people pay far too much attention to this whole subject. I've never been able to tell the difference between 00 and EM gauge except in close-up, front-end photos, for example.

For narrow-gauge modelling, where the actual result is often of very small models of generic prototypes which were frequently built in a range of gauges, I'd feel the whole issue can be simply disregarded.

From what I can see of Gn15, the actual outcome is of a distinctly cartoonish or cameo appearance, with trains tracing very small and clearly visible circles and quite often, distinctly non-naturalistic figures being employed - Barton Ings is a good example of this. To be worrying about whether your track should really be a couple of mm larger or smaller in this context seems to me, quite irrelevant.

If the model is of a sufficient quality no-one will care less, least of all at exhibitions. The ''cameo'' or ''vignette'' style can be very effective, as well; not least by completely avoiding the various issues of scale compression in plan which are extreme in such a large scale. Some Gn15 layouts - Simplicity Sidings, for example, are almost better regarded as dioramas with moving parts, than operable layouts.

Stamping Ground is a classic of this genre; really a representative narrative, rather than a realistic model, but very effective because the narrative works, even for the casual or uninformed observer.
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Postby Charlie Stewart » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:40 am

From what I can see of Gn15, the actual outcome is of a distinctly cartoonish or cameo appearance, with trains tracing very small and clearly visible circles and quite often, distinctly non-naturalistic figures being employed - Barton Ings is a good example of this. To be worrying about whether your track should really be a couple of mm larger or smaller in this context seems to me, quite irrelevant.



well literally HUNDREDS of paying viewers who have seen Barton Ings for real.. in the flesh have actually commented on how life-like the figures/cameos etc. are... especially the public who have seen the REAL SITE.....

I think we ought to by now see some of your own work, seeing as a quick search of your previous posts shows you are highly critical of almost everything you comment on this site....

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Scale versa Impressions

Postby Roger » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:07 pm

Taking up rambling miners observations, We all know that any model is a compromise but if modelling a prototype or something a manufacturer offered in the catalogue but maybe never actually made, then I think scale is relevant. The model must reflect the spirit of the prototype otherwise you cannot claim it to be a model of the prototype!

Even people who model freelance make an effort to represent some form of scale otherwise the result are not credible.

I dont claim to be a rivet counter, but hope that my models are a reasonable representation of a prototype. I believe that if you choose a scale, say 1:24 and wish to do a 2' gauge prototype then the model gauge should be 1", if it is 3/4" say then you are modeling an 18" gauge line, etc.
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Postby rockershovel » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:59 pm

Driff_Charlie wrote:
From what I can see of Gn15, the actual outcome is of a distinctly cartoonish or cameo appearance, with trains tracing very small and clearly visible circles and quite often, distinctly non-naturalistic figures being employed - Barton Ings is a good example of this. To be worrying about whether your track should really be a couple of mm larger or smaller in this context seems to me, quite irrelevant.



well literally HUNDREDS of paying viewers who have seen Barton Ings for real.. in the flesh have actually commented on how life-like the figures/cameos etc. are... especially the public who have seen the REAL SITE.....

I think we ought to by now see some of your own work, seeing as a quick search of your previous posts shows you are highly critical of almost everything you comment on this site....

Charlie


I've seen Barton Ings and I think it comes over very well.

The comment about non-naturalistic figures is taken from a comment by the builder, who observes that provided the figures are consistent then the general effect will be right.. and I would agree..

I'd also differentiate between ''cameo'' and ''caricature'', cameos were and are miniatures embodying the essence of an original, which I would say describes layouts like Barton Ings very well; anyone who knows the Humberside area would recognise it straight away.
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Re: Scale versa Impressions

Postby rockershovel » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:19 pm

Roger wrote:Taking up rambling miners observations, We all know that any model is a compromise but if modelling a prototype or something a manufacturer offered in the catalogue but maybe never actually made, then I think scale is relevant. The model must reflect the spirit of the prototype otherwise you cannot claim it to be a model of the prototype!

Even people who model freelance make an effort to represent some form of scale otherwise the result are not credible.

I dont claim to be a rivet counter, but hope that my models are a reasonable representation of a prototype. I believe that if you choose a scale, say 1:24 and wish to do a 2' gauge prototype then the model gauge should be 1", if it is 3/4" say then you are modeling an 18" gauge line, etc.


there is a crucial point here, which is that working 15" gauge railways are virtually non-existent in the real world... I have never seen one apart from the R&ER and R&HDR - both partly informed by model-makers and wealthy enthusiasts - and Eaton Hall, a rich man's project. So, once you accept the central conceit of 15" gauge industrial lines, what are you modelling?

If you are simply building representative models based on a scale/gauge ratio which uses available parts and fits the space, you have no problems...


I have to admit that a lengthy and quite intense period of 12" to the foot construction offshore, combined with an improvement in results and consequent interest from No 1 Son in his motorcycle racing ( more work for me since I am responsible for his engines ) has tended to stymie my return to modelling... the loco project I started this time last year has made almost no progress in, oh, too long and probably won't re-start any time soon.
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What am I modelling?

Postby Roger » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:21 pm

From Rambaling Miner - what are you modelling?

Well I thought that I had indicated this at the start, I am making a model of the 18" Gauge Bagnal manufactured for the Kimberly Diamond Mines. The Scale is 1:24 running on a 3/4" gauge track.

I cannot comment on 15" gauge lines as I have never researched these, but 18" and 500mm lines were prevelent throughout the world.
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Postby rockershovel » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:31 pm

as it happens, a 0-6-6-0 Mallet in ( approximately ) 0n16.5. I was very impressed with seeing the Vivarais Mallets on a family trip to France in the 1960s, and subsequently saw them depicted in a book bought from the local library in a book sale.

about 18 months ago, a box of Hornby miscellaenia came to light through the family, including two incomplete 2-6-4 chassis. The drivers on these scale near-enough 1m in 7mm scale, and the project was born...

so far I have designed the cut on the two chassis for the coupling, scribed the filing ( to lower and level the cylinders ) and produced a template for the footplate/body shell based on the one surviving body shell ( a styrene mock-up didn't seem to be sufficiently rigid, and it preserves part of the original body mounting )

next job for the ( hopefully ) winter off-season will be to shorten the two chassis with a fine saw and needle files, fabricate the coupling from a block of brass and screw it to the front of the trailing chassis - unless I have a better idea in the meanwhile?

I can't see any way of driving the front chassis using the existing parts...
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Mallet 0n16

Postby Roger » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:27 pm

Just a suggestion, Slaters do an nice set of universal joints. If you mounted the motor midway and make a pair of drive shafts to both chassis to pick up on the existing wheel gearing.
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Postby rockershovel » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:08 am

I looked at that a while ago, I think it would be easier to make new chassis. It may be easier anyway... at which point I will probably scrap the whole project and look for a better prototype, or a diffferent chassis
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Postby Gerry Bullock » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:22 am

Driff_Charlie wrote:
From what I can see of Gn15, the actual outcome is of a distinctly cartoonish or cameo appearance, with trains tracing very small and clearly visible circles and quite often, distinctly non-naturalistic figures being employed - Barton Ings is a good example of this. To be worrying about whether your track should really be a couple of mm larger or smaller in this context seems to me, quite irrelevant.



well literally HUNDREDS of paying viewers who have seen Barton Ings for real.. in the flesh have actually commented on how life-like the figures/cameos etc. are... especially the public who have seen the REAL SITE.....

I think we ought to by now see some of your own work, seeing as a quick search of your previous posts shows you are highly critical of almost everything you comment on this site....

Charlie


Here, here Charlie,
I haven't seen Barton Ings in the flesh BUT know a man who has and he regards it as a superb layout.
In view of the comment about your figures I wonder whether you might be interested in a small project myself and a fellow Club member are working on :?:
We're looking at DCC controlled walking figures however we've currently a bit of a hitch, can't seem to program them to get in & out of Loco Cabs. :twisted: :roll: :lol: :lol:
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
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Postby grombert » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:57 pm

Have they gone?
Regarding boilers, I would not like to build my own as - even in this size and pressures - if one exploded it would make a mess or more than one's eyebrows. However, to get one the correct size I guess you will have to. Since it will be gas fired(*) and there will be no need for a flue brush down tubes, would a spiral fire tube be worth considering; to increase heat transfer? With spirit firing the steam is often led down under the boiler and into the flames again, before going to the cylinders. Are you considering a similar form of super heating?
(*) Is the idea about electric heating because you want to run it indoors? I know there are some exhibitions where gas is not allowed.
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