Back from the Dead (or so it seems)

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Back from the Dead (or so it seems)

Postby kf4mat » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:57 pm

Man, it seems like I have been gone forever.... it seems life always gets in the way of relaxation time. :x

Anyway I was able to purchase this Hornby 0-4-0,

Image

which I was told rather abruptly on another forum quote :

"...not a real loco, just a cheap product aimed at younger children at a budget price..."

However for the princely sum of 14.50 GBP I was not expecting a brass import. I was thinking of maybe using this as a starting point to try my hand at detailing it out. If it is not based on a real loco then so much the better because the rivet counters can't say anything. However, could this unit be used as a base model for a Gn15 scratch build critter?

It was cheaper for me to get this shipped to the US from the UK than to buy a Thomas the Tank Percy engine.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Back from the Dead (or so it seems)

Postby Blackcloud Railways » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:18 pm

kf4mat wrote:Any thoughts?

Probably not as good a runner as similar sized Bachmann products but you may be lucky.

The cabs on these locos are remarkably empty, which makes them useful for conversion to open backed miniatures with the driver riding on a tender. Larger boiler fittings, especially the smokestack, would compound this image.

Otherwise build a new boxy body, allowing plenty of weight to be added, and go for a freelance i/c or battery powered machine, or maybe even something along the lines of Ant and Bee.

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Postby Gerry Bullock » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:34 pm

If you were planning on a Gn15 steamer Tom it does have the significant disadvantage of no outside cylinders otherwise this would have been a player:

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=3789


Alternatively this route is certainly on albeit Terry did use a UK Kit to build the Loco:

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=339

Both of these Locos have been shunted out of the Loco Shed, a section of this Forum that certainly worth looking through for ideas.
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Postby Mark Goodwin » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:37 pm

Tom,

This unit will have been produced in China and at the price is excellent value. I have used other plastic models as the basis for a scratchbuilt engine. I usually remove the body and keep the body base intact, ensuring that the completed model will still fit to the chassis and scratchbuild the body up from this. The system I use is to sketch an idea and then do a scale drawing showing clearences with motor etc. This can then be "Tweaked" until the final desgn is chosen. An example of the principle is shown here using a Bachmann "Emily" to make an "Emett style" single driver:

Image


Sometimes, the finished article looks different from the plan.

Image

Your model's similar cousin, with an additional set of con rods, forms the basis of many GN15 models. (See trade tittle tattle Smallbrook Non Emett GN15 loco)
Image

In buying the loco, you have made a start - and I think you will have a great deal of fun designing and making something unique. Rivet counter's can't complain - you designed it and it works !!! :D
With kind regards and best wishes,
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Postby Huw Griffiths » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:14 pm

There was an interesting thread about this loco on the MRF site (you don't need to be a member to read it):

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/in ... opic=16501


The thread also includes this link, to a photo of an industrial loco - which suggests that this one might actually have been loosely based on a real prototype, after all:

http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/Images3_I-P ... t-1907.jpg

OK - I can't claim to be the biggest fan of this one - but I have sometimes wondered about using one in a freelance O-16.5 steam railmotor. (At this point, I should perhaps add that I've thought about rather more projects like this than I've actually built ... !)


Perhaps a bit closer to home, I'm aware that a number of people use this model (or its outside cylindered cousin "Smokey Joe") for "bashes" in a number of scales. I also seem to recall Christopher Payne mentioning somewhere about using these - and the rather different "Bill & Ben" chassis - and stressing the importance of using a decent controller.

Certainly though, I get the impression that it's perfectly possible to make something of this model - even if it might not be one for the purists.


As for the rivet counters - and especially the nitpickers (who may, or may not, be the same people) - I wonder how many of them have actually built the museum standard models they seem to expect from everyone else. It has been suggested that some of these people don't build models - but, if they did, they'd probably be the best models in the world. (Reassuring, isn't it?)

In other words, don't worry about these guys. If they're not really qualified to make comments, the chances are that not everything they say will actually be worth listening to. Even if it is, they can say it in a constructive manner. (I used to work in higher education - and I've got good reasons for not liking "dig for victory" campaigns.)

As far as I'm concerned, saying "I like this" - or (if invited to comment) "I'm not sure ###### adds anything" - is perfectly reasonable. On the other hand I've always had a problem with people trying to "lay down the law", without relevant experience or evidence to back things up.


By the way, if you're looking for future projects, I've heard some excellent reports about the "Bachmann Junior" chassis (having looked inside one, I can also see why it's well regarded).


Whatever the score, I'm sure you'll get a lot of enjoyment from this model - I'm sure you'll end up with something decent - and I'm also sure you'll learn a lot of useful stuff during the build.


Regards,

Huw.

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Postby wahiba » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:50 am

This chassis will run around a 90 mm radii of flexible track. Much tighter than I expected.

My card body experiment with a similar chassis.
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Postby Simon Andrews » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:55 pm

Hi Tom,

How about a steam outline internal combustion loco?
http://altontowersmemories.net/page8.htm

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Thanks!!!

Postby kf4mat » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:36 pm

Sorry for the late response..... But thanks all for the information, it figures that I would buy the wrong thing. :lol: Oh well, I went searching for the "Smokey Joe" and see it is just a little bit more expensive. It would really be easier if Hornby, Bachmann et al would just make their whole product lines available on both sides of the pond. I've only seen a limited amount from Hornby USA and don't think Bachmann even bothers.

Anyway now I don't know if I want to try anything with this one or not, went to Smallbrook studios and was checking out the "Columbine" which was shown in a post above. Wonder if Hattons will by the "Stupid American excuse" and let me trade up for it.

Thanks again the modellers on this site amaze me with their capabilites!!!

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Postby michael » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:47 am

It was cheaper for me to get this shipped to the US from the UK than to buy a Thomas the Tank Percy engine.
Wow!

The cost of oil must not be high enough yet. because it was probably made in China anyway, then shipped via the Suez or overland by the Orient Express to the UK first in any case. Then over to the US. Some peasant worker probably got paid a quarter wedge of a mandarin orange for working all day assembling them in some remote factory where the air was unfit to breath on a windy day.
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Postby Artizen » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:48 am

A quarter wedge of a mandarin orange! Luxury! When I was a lad you had to lick road clean before starting work as well!!! :P
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Re: Thanks!!!

Postby Huw Griffiths » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:30 pm

kf4mat wrote:... it figures that I would buy the wrong thing. :lol: Oh well, I went searching for the "Smokey Joe" and see it is just a little bit more expensive. It would really be easier if Hornby, Bachmann et al would just make their whole product lines available on both sides of the pond.

Anyway now I don't know if I want to try anything with this one or not, went to Smallbrook studios and was checking out the "Columbine" which was shown in a post above. Wonder if Hattons will buy the "Stupid American excuse" and let me trade up for it.

Don't worry about it - if I were in your position, I'd just go ahead and use what you've got.

In case you're wondering, the Hornby "0-4-0T" (which you've got), their "Smokey Joe", their "GWR 101" and their "Class 06 diesel" are actually the same chassis - the only difference is that "Smokey Joe" and "101" have outside cylinders and conn rods from these to the wheels on one axle.

(I can't prove this - as I don't have both in front of me - and I don't have a digital camera / photo hosting account. However, in the past, I have held these models alongside each other - and they're definitely the same chassis.)

Other than that, they are identical - so if one version works, they'll all work.

One point that's been missed here is that your model will be freelance - so you don't need to worry about the lack of outside cylinders. However, if you are concerned, there's nothing to stop you adding tramway skirts to your model.

In other words, you'll be fine - and so will your model. Any comments here have actually been about what you might wish to get for future projects - please don't let them detract from what you're working on now.


I don't know if these links might be of any interest to you.

First, Hornby's list of loco service sheets:

http://www.hornby.com/customer-support/ ... 3,HAR.html

The one marked "0-4-0 locomotive" might be of particular interest to you - this is the loco you've got (it's also "Smokey Joe"):

http://static.hornby.com/files/ss-200e-0-4-0-405.pdf

Finally, here's the sheet for "Bill and Ben":

http://static.hornby.com/files/ss-265-238.pdf


In case you're wondering, I believe the Bachmann Junior range is available in the US - it's sold there as the "Thomas the tank engine" range.

From what I've read elsewhere, different companies are licensed to produce "Thomas" stuff for sale in different countries - in the US, it's Bachmann - in the UK, it's Hornby.


Again for future reference, you might sometimes find old ranges being sold off at ridiculously low prices. It doesn't happen very often - and you might sometimes need to think about how to use some of these - but there's no harm keeping your eyes open.

For example, the other year, there was a (very young) children's TV series "Underground Ernie". The series didn't take off as planned - and Bachmann found themselves with a load of "Ernie" trains, which they ended up selling off dirt cheap. The bodyshells looked nothing like anything that's ever run on real tracks - but the chassis were perfectly serviceable (even if they could benefit from a few "tweaks"). Some modellers were able to bag themselves a bargain.

OK, "Ernie" isn't likely to reappear any time soon - but I wouldn't bet against the chassis reappearing in something else. I also wouldn't bet against some manufacturer deciding that they need to "dump" some other range in the future. The key is being in the right place at the right time (and seeing potential uses).


Anyway, please try not to worry - what you've got will work just fine.

All the best,

Huw.

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Postby jacko » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:46 pm

i'm making a loco in this form from a ernie underground


Image

so things can be done with them :oops:
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Postby rockershovel » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:17 pm

what about a mining loco? Inside cylinders are rare on narrow gauge but not unknown. Ant and Bee are well known; try the Industrial Railway Society website, look in the archives for a piece describing three mining locos from the US, one of which had inside cylinders.
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Postby kf4mat » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:06 pm

Well again all I can say is Thanks for even more info! The service sheets were very interesting.

I also made an enquiry to Hornby about the cost of a packet of the spare connecting rods. Now that I see a diagram, a set of cylinders wouldn't be too hard to fabricate.

Now to come up with a design, of course I also need the post which sent the loco overland via China and beyond to get it here to the Burg.

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Postby Huw Griffiths » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:36 pm

Were you quoted an affordable price for the connecting rods?

I believe that some modellers used to fabricate conn rods from scrap rail - presumably doing a lot of filing on the flanges - and soldering on washers where the crankpins go.

I must admit that I've never actually tried this method, so I don't know how workable it actually is.

However you get (or make) the conn rods, there's obviously the little matter of extracting the crankpins from the wheels - which again I've never tried. If / when you reach this point, I'd be grateful if you could say how you get on - and if you need any special tools.

Obviously, if somebody else has done this before, I suspect a number of us might be interested in learning from their experience.

It goes without saying that I'll be following this thread with interest.

Regards,

Huw.

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Postby kf4mat » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:01 pm

Huw Griffiths wrote:Were you quoted an affordable price for the connecting rods?


Next week during business hours I'm sure they will respond back but I'll let you know.

Huw Griffiths wrote:
I believe that some modellers used to fabricate conn rods from scrap rail - presumably doing a lot of filing on the flanges - and soldering on washers where the crankpins go.

I must admit that I've never actually tried this method, so I don't know how workable it actually is.

However you get (or make) the conn rods, there's obviously the little matter of extracting the crankpins from the wheels - which again I've never tried. If / when you reach this point, I'd be grateful if you could say how you get on - and if you need any special tools.


If worse comes to worse and they don't want to play nice, I'll drill them out.

Tom

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Postby Arthur Inch » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:50 am

Hi Tom,

These links may help you in your quest,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HORNBY-L-8089-BIL ... 53e64db70d


http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=Horn ... SRCHX:SRCH

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_kw=Hornb ... SRCHX:SRCH


As for extracting the crank pins, brute force is required to pull them out, be careful though, you may well end up with the complete wheel coming of the axle spline, speaks the voice of past encounters refurbishing these little beasties, at the last count well into the high sixties!!!

Oh! nearly forgot, with some attention in the right places they can and often perform exceptionally well, even and including bringing under control their inbuilt habit of doing 0 to 60 in less than a nano second.!!!

There are a couple of exceptional eBay sellers who have a complete range of spares for these little darlings, and at good prices.


Persevere it will all come good in the end........................
“Sir, Sunday morning, although recurring at regular and well foreseen intervals, always seems to take this railway by surprise.”


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Postby kf4mat » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:20 am

Arthur Inch wrote:Hi Tom,

These links may help you in your quest,

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HORNBY-L-8089-BIL ... 53e64db70d


http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_nkw=Horn ... SRCHX:SRCH

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_kw=Hornb ... SRCHX:SRCH


As for extracting the crank pins, brute force is required to pull them out, be careful though, you may well end up with the complete wheel coming of the axle spline, speaks the voice of past encounters refurbishing these little beasties, at the last count well into the high sixties!!!

Oh! nearly forgot, with some attention in the right places they can and often perform exceptionally well, even and including bringing under control their inbuilt habit of doing 0 to 60 in less than a nano second.!!!

There are a couple of exceptional eBay sellers who have a complete range of spares for these little darlings, and at good prices.


Persevere it will all come good in the end........................


Very good info thank you. As Hedley Lamarr said in Blazing Saddles quote:

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."

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Postby Arthur Inch » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:37 pm

kf4mat wrote:Currently thinking on how best to transform a Hornby 0-4-0 into something cooler than stock :idea:


Hi Tom,
Ok your on, lets see just what the magic dust of the Gn15 forum can perform, in turning your ugly duckling into a gracefull swan.:D


Bit the bullet, and in a sheer moment of madness bid and won a Hornby 0-4-0 on eBay. :lol:

Have no idea what to expect unil it turns up.............

Watch this space........ :)
“Sir, Sunday morning, although recurring at regular and well foreseen intervals, always seems to take this railway by surprise.”





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Postby Korschtal » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:45 pm

How about a tram engine with skirts on the side to protect livestock/people in the working environs? One skirt could have an open "access panel" so you can see something moving.

Or maybe a diesel mechanical? (with or without skirts)

I've got a similar chassis which will hopefully become a power unit for a modern styled railcar, whith skirts almost to track level to hide the fact it's really a kettle...
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Postby kf4mat » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:33 pm

Arthur Inch wrote:
Hi Tom,
Ok your on, lets see just what the magic dust of the Gn15 forum can perform, in turning your ugly duckling into a gracefull swan.:D


Bit the bullet, and in a sheer moment of madness bid and won a Hornby 0-4-0 on eBay. :lol:

Have no idea what to expect unil it turns up.............

Watch this space........ :)


Your's may turn up before mine. I was crossing my fingers for a Saturday delivery, but the post was just bills. I'm also waiting for a book I ordered from the UK on Modeling the Brit Rail period.

One thing I do want to ask; is the coupling system on this loco real or just used on toys? I'm thinking that system may need to dissappear.

Tom

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Postby Thin Layman » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:16 pm

Has anyoneyet pointed out the possibility of a geared loco with the cylinders and valve gear hidden inside the frames or susperstructure?

Vertical boiler locos (eg Sentinel or Atkinson-Walker) are one option, or look here:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... m=1&itbs=1
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Postby kf4mat » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:42 pm

Thin Layman wrote:Has anyoneyet pointed out the possibility of a geared loco with the cylinders and valve gear hidden inside the frames or susperstructure?



Well now that certainly is neat. Plus you have to like the names of the engines; Hops & Malt :lol:

I also find that the coupling system is real, perhaps someone could tell me if I am correct that it is called "Cranked Coupling"?

Tom

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Postby Arthur Inch » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:35 pm

kf4mat wrote:One thing I do want to ask; is the coupling system on this loco real or just used on toys? I'm thinking that system may need to dissappear.Tom


Hi Tom, yes!!!! it is for real, some swear by it, others swear at it! :D

If you look at the numerous pictures that abound on here, you will see many types of coupling systems in use, commercial made and home brew, what is used is often down to the builders preferences, and the tightness of the radius of curves that the stock has to run on.

For instance the Hornby coupling you are refering to, is unable to negoiate the very tight radius curves that are on Gnoring Abbey..... where as a link and pin system is ideal.

More or less anything goes no hard and fast rule..... :lol:
“Sir, Sunday morning, although recurring at regular and well foreseen intervals, always seems to take this railway by surprise.”





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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:14 am

Hi Tom,
some tear-down pics here
http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=3457

and some other ideas from the past:
http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=5509

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=5697

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=6983

and for an IC outline using a "Thomas"
http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=1825
with a printie here
http://tome.gn15.info/05_April_07.pdf

A Smokey Joe or similar could be used for a similar loco but without the jackshaft ie 0-4-0 chain drive with the rods driving the other axle

I hope that these might give some more inspiration,
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