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Sound? - Page 2 - The GnATTERbox

Sound?

For discussion of the issues faced when building a model or layout - how to replicate wood, what glues to use, exactly how much weathering can a Gnat take, a good source of detailing accessories - you get the picture, I'm sure.

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Postby Gerry Bullock » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:49 am

So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
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Postby Bob Taylor » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:33 pm

Can you imagine a exhibition room full of sound and smoke effects :shock:

Bob.
maybach52.taylor@googlemail.com.

Gn15: Remember SIZE does matter! and may all your gauges be little ones.

Gnine: Narrow your horizons!

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Postby Steve Bennett » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:14 pm

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Sound?

Postby Coo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:22 pm

Chris

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Postby Jon Randall » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:45 pm

Jon Randall

Needs to stop procrastinating and start modelling

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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:06 pm

Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.

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Postby John New » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:07 pm

John
http://www.stephensonloco.org.uk | http://www.yorkshow.org.uk | http://www.island-publishing.co.uk

Remembering it’s a hobby and I am allowed to smile!

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Postby Steve Bennett » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:39 pm

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sound?

Postby Coo » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:23 pm

I'll risk raising my head above the parapet on this subject. As it
is something I have been playing with for some time

The problem I have is finding a way of tackling the subject without
getting long winded and without unintentionally upsetting anyone.

In the context of a layout, sound has to be approached the same way
as the experienced modelers in this forum approach the use of light.

You manipulate it to fool the viewers brain into thinking they are
looking at the real thing......from a distance. On any layout
a multitude of techniques are used to achieve the illusion, but any
given model on the layout will only use a subset of those techniques.

The science of how the human brain deals with sound is called
psychoacoustics. You may care to have a look here for a primer
.

Consider a simple example which most people are familiar with -
a stereo system. Two speakers correctly positioned can fool the brain
into believing that sounds are originating from points between the speakers.

Physics must also be considered. :cry: Realistic on-board sound
from a diesel engined vehicle - forget it. The speaker is too small to
reproduce the low frequencies. Fortunately, electronics can help by
employing active motional feedback the low frequency range of the
speaker can be extended. Unfortunately, not sufficiently :evil:
However, the brain cannot locate the source of low frequencies so
these can be provided by a speaker under the layout whilst leaving
the on-board speaker to reproduce the high frequencies.

I will present one other example, Arc Welding. These are essentially
high frequency sounds, worse it is modified white noise. Given that
it is at a fixed location it could be fed through a stereo system.
That will work for one person whose
head is clamped in a fixed position. For some reason I do not think
this is practical :shock: . OK, so place a speaker at each corner of the layout.
Better, but only to on person at a defined location. So the
sound must come from a speaker located where the activity is taking
place on the layout. Now all viewers can match the sound to the activity.

Then there is..... no forget it, I'm missing the comedy show of the week
Top Gear :)
Chris

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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:56 pm

Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.

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Martin's "Whole Picture" RE Sound + Steam + Smoke

Postby Prof Klyzlr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:37 am

Dear Martin, Modellers,

Getting "realistic presentation" of stem powered operations is simply a case of knowing exactly what you want to achieve,

then "problemsolving" what is needed to achieve it :wink:

As an example, I submit my O scale WORKING 2 drum Harman "Pair of 8's" steam winch and Highlead snigging system,

http://www.geocities.com/loggingloco1/N ... /Winch.jpg

This model, kitbashed heavily from a ILM winch kit, sported 2 independent motors. 1 drove the the crankshaft/pistons, and the other ran a weighted line to drive both the haulback and mainline drum, as well as scale rigging on the spar tree, (out of shot at left), and the tail tree.

The boiler is a scratchbuilt rendition of the Underfired multitube boiler used as the mill boiler on Rubicon Tramway's #2 mill, (built from a single side and end shot plan in Peter Evan's "Rails to Rubicon" book thru the Light Railway Research Society of Australia http://www.lrrsa.org.au ).

The boiler houses a 35mm film canister (pre digital! ;-) ),
which holds around 30 ml of Seuthe smoke fluid.
(That lasts 3 X 8 hours days of a train show!)

The smokebox houses a Seuthe 503 gen, which exhausts up "draft style" thru the brass tube stack, (at lower than spec voltage, giving a pleasing low velocity "wafting" smoke effect of a self drafting boiler).

The firebox has 7 LEDs of various red/orange/yellow shades, powered by the headphone output of a regular FM radio, giving a suitable "firebox flicker".

The whole deal is sync'd to a CD spec playback sequence of a actual 2 drum winch, inc the correct "whistle codes" to instruct the winch driver,
(the cable running from the whistle parallels the haulage cable, and was controlled by a "whistle stringy", who shadowed the "swampy" as he attached downed logs to the rigging for haulage to the log loading/landing site).

While it WAS possible to manually drive the system, my operators flatly stated that they would not, and it would only operate inthat mode if I did the operating. Ergo, it was modified for "fully automatic" operation.
(the logs were removed from the rigging,
because I could think of plenty of reasons why the rigging would arrive at the landing "empty",
but could not think of a reason why the system would haul some logs in, and then immediately haul them back OUT to the bush again!?!?!?! :wink: )

Just found this 2nd pic inthe archives, showing the fire and the spar tree

http://www.geocities.com/loggingloco1/N ... Winch2.jpg

I guess what I'm trying to illustrate is,
if you can "see (and hear) the scene",
you CAN build it,
and sound Done Well, can only enhance it... :wink:

[/img]
Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

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Cumulative Volume at Train shows

Postby Prof Klyzlr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:58 am

Dear Steve, Modellers,

I agree that it's pretty easy for a number of layouts soundsystems to sum together, and get "too loud" at a show,

(I've never said it should be Turned UP,
I Have said it it best Done Well! :wink: )

I personally DO take noise and frequency spectrum level readings at the shows I attend,
(perks/drawbacks of being a Pro Sound Technician :oops: ),

and I ensure that my layout's systems are NOT consciously audible at a distance beyond 3' from the crowd barrier,
(IE I WANT people to "Lean in" and be pleasantly surprised by the bird chorus, or the shout of the winch's whistle as it hauls in another turn of logs. This is subtle "Theatrical" Presentation, Not "Sledgehammer" presentation!!!).

In contrast, I have also worked on "Museum" and "Theme display" sound installations that very much Required "ground shaking" volumes and effects,

(The War Memorial installs mentioned earlier in the thread has a number of "Life size" walk thru displays, such as the inside of a Bomber, one of the WW2 "Hunslett" 4-6-0 locos, and a war-torn villiage, that had the design brief of "make the viewer feel like they are IN the situation").

I would not DARE run my layout sound systems at anywhere near those volumes, the application simply does not warrant that.
(In "show" conditions, that goes under the category
"Having respect for your fellow exhibitors",
in Home use, it comes under
"The solution must FIT the problem,
NOT stomp all over it!")

I'm happy to talk offlist about the hard tech data of SPL levels at the "average" train show, and some of the speaker techniques one can use to overcome them,

and I wholeheartedly agree that what a Modeller gets away with in their own private train room is probably significantly different than what should be "put forward" when presenting the "Public face of Model RailRoading/Railway Modelling" to the General Public,

I'll say it one more time,
If You are Enjoying YOUR trains,
then far be it from me or anyone else to take umberage,
(I don't believe that's what the original intent of the thread was about anyway),

but I fear it would be a generally Bad Thing to discount out of hand the idea that Well Done sound simply doesn't have any place in Model Railways, esp in the "Public Eye" of exhibitions,
Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

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Sound recording

Postby Oztrainz » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:13 am

John Garaty
Murphy was an optimist

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John G's "Hunslett" cicadas???

Postby Prof Klyzlr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:22 am

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

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Re: Cumulative Volume at Train shows

Postby Steve Bennett » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:24 pm

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Postby andrew milner » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:09 pm

Andrew Milner, still trying to figure it out....

dr5euss
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Postby dr5euss » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:47 pm


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Gerry Bullock
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Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:07 pm
Location: S.E.Essex
Interests: Gn15 and O Gauge at Club.
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Postby Gerry Bullock » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:51 pm

So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.

http://gn15gnutt.blogspot.com/

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rue_d_etropal
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Posts: 2169
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:10 pm

Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.

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Gavin Sowry
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Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:06 am
Location: Wellington New Zealand
Interests: Railways, of course. Cricket , Footy and Holden cars!
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Postby Gavin Sowry » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:38 pm

Gavin Sowry
Gn15 Gnu Zealand

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Jon Randall
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Posts: 995
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:18 pm
Location: NW Leics, England
Interests: Narrow gauge railways, modelling
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Postby Jon Randall » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:38 pm

Jon Randall

Needs to stop procrastinating and start modelling

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Prof Klyzlr
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 321
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:10 am
Location: ...Somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush
Interests: Aussie NG Logging Tramway fan
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"Confining Sound" : For Jon and Steve

Postby Prof Klyzlr » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:44 pm

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

dr5euss
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Postby dr5euss » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:46 pm


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Steve Bennett
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Posts: 4512
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 12:55 am
Location: Exeter, UK
Interests: railways?
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Postby Steve Bennett » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:53 pm

Steve Bennett

Sidelines

http://www.pepper7.com

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rue_d_etropal
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Posts: 2169
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:02 am

Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.


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